Curse

Fleeting · Mar 27, 2009, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

If you mean [Healer's Boon], then you can thank [Ursan Blessing] for that.

Pretty much this. Teams have become structured such that it's less effective for them to bring a prot instead of a redbar monk.

Trinity Fire Angel · Mar 29, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

there is one thing a lot of people have missed.... spamming heal party does not work. well, it does, but requires excellent positioning. how else can you channel all your energy back for those big heals?

the only time i will HB is if i know i have a good prot monk in the team... otherwise, what good is a HB monk if you can;t prot peolpe from getting hit in the first place?

my opinion is that most of the people that want HB monks for pve are those who actually can;t monk themselves or don;t understand that HB only really works well with RC / LS / PnH or that you can't really really really spam heal party without channelling. (well.. GoLE works, but it is not really spamming then is it? --- oh, unless you take a BiP)

anything else is just asking for failure

Stealth Bomberman · Mar 30, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Its a pretty simple explanation if you think about it.

Far to many players take this game way to seriously.
To a certain extent the game itself makes people think and play that way.

Practically no one I have met in the game takes a failed mission or pvp game as just one of those things.
Never mind that was fun lets all have another go kind of thing.

Its about winning and winning faster than anyone else has ever finished.
Most players have a finite amount of time and to gain all titles you need to play many hundreds of hours.
Few take failure and a wasted hour or two lightly sadly this means they are playing like machines not people and are doomed to a frustrating GW experience.

Some psychologist should write a paper on it, its all quite fascinating just how overly competitive, people can get about a game.
If they put the same effort into real life they would all be extremely successful and completely unbearable human beings.

some ppl are just competetive by nature and would rather win. idk bout u, but i like winning.

to OP: [arcane echo][healers boon][seed of life] kinda sells itself

fb2000 · Mar 30, 2009, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Healers boon is an amazing skill, I dont get half of you people who bitch at random at it oO. Party heal spam can be just right, just as word of healing can be just right, or guardian or spirit bond or etc ;x

thinkingofaname · Apr 14, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Agreed, HB is a very good elite for a pve heal monk, although personally i like UA more. WoH is ok too, but both HB and UA offer fast and cheap combat rez while WoH is only a power heal.

What people don't understand is that 1 HB monk = good, 2 HB monks = fail. As some people said, you need some kind of damage reduction before the red bar goes up, but the red bar goes up is just as important as well.

I don't understand why people run hybrid builds in pve, its FAR more effective to have a dedicated prot monk and a dedicated heal monk, because there is no chance for overlapping enchantment or over healing. Even for skilled pvp monks, it takes ALOT of effort and practice to coordinate among the healers. For pug groups, chances are you never met the other monk and have no way to communicate with each other, so basically each monk does his own thing and hopefully everything will be ok. See how that might be a problem? Dedicated heal or prot monks not only makes the monk's job easier, but also provide fail safe ways to ensure both monks can support each other. For hybrid monks, unless both monks watch the field perfectly and pay attention to what the other monk is doing, everything is just gonna fall apart eventually. Even if they do their job perfectly, you run into problems like one monk has Aegis while the other has guardian, or one person has dismiss while the other has RC etc. The only time I would run a hybrid myself is when I have absolutely no idea what the other monk is running, or it looks like the other monk completely fails at monking. Although when that happens, I generally request to add my own hero healer or switch to a power pve build like a ether renewal healer.

Xenomortis · Apr 14, 2009, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

Agreed, HB is a very good elite for a pve heal monk

But it is very rare that a pure healer is actually advantageous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

I don't understand why people run hybrid builds in pve, its FAR more effective to have a dedicated prot monk and a dedicated heal monk, because there is no chance for overlapping enchantment or over healing.

With Healer's Boon, you're going to be overhealing a lot, with just one person. It is less efficient to run one healer and one protter than it is two run two hybrids.
Against pressure, the protter is going to feel more or less redundant and the healer is going to be doing all the work. Against spike damage, the protter is going to be overstretched and the healer will only be able to heal those that are saved by the protter.

There's also the fact, that good prot skills don't require a heavy investment to be effective and you don't need many. Spirit Bond is great even with only 9 in Protection Prayers, as is Protective Spirit.
Similarly, you don't need many healing skills. Word of Healing and one other (say Dwayna's Kiss) should be fine as far as healing is concerned. If both monks bring those, that's all the healing you should need.
If you run Healer's Boon, you're going to be overhealing a lot more.

The monk sticky explains this much better than I ever could.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 14, 2009, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Also i don't trust the other monk to prot/heal worth shit so 90% of the time i do all the work while he spams orison/glimmer or something on a target thats not getting whacked on

glacialphoenix · Apr 14, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

For hybrid monks, unless both monks watch the field perfectly and pay attention to what the other monk is doing, everything is just gonna fall apart eventually.

That would, really, apply to everything. Also, if by any chance one of the monks dies, it's easier to hold out with a hybrid monk than a pure prot or pure heal.

Ferminator · Apr 16, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

UA+Holyhaste, imo is better than HB. At 12 divine favor it can heal the same amount as HB and it's rebirth with a 0.000000000001 second casting time at full health AND energy! -the energy kill

. The only downside is that it's a maintained enchantment and has -1 energy regeneration which can be fixed by not spamming heals. But if I had a hero, I would prefer HB because resing with UA is too hard to micro manage. Oh wait, heroes use it perfectly

.

Yeah I agree with Ursan making HB look 1337. It had a huge impact on pve -> "Ooh, HB was used with Ursan so it is uber 1337, use it you noob!"

thinkingofaname · Apr 19, 2009, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

But it is very rare that a pure healer is actually advantageous.

With Healer's Boon, you're going to be overhealing a lot, with just one person. It is less efficient to run one healer and one protter than it is two run two hybrids.
Against pressure, the protter is going to feel more or less redundant and the healer is going to be doing all the work. Against spike damage, the protter is going to be overstretched and the healer will only be able to heal those that are saved by the protter.

There's also the fact, that good prot skills don't require a heavy investment to be effective and you don't need many. Spirit Bond is great even with only 9 in Protection Prayers, as is Protective Spirit.
Similarly, you don't need many healing skills. Word of Healing and one other (say Dwayna's Kiss) should be fine as far as healing is concerned. If both monks bring those, that's all the healing you should need.
If you run Healer's Boon, you're going to be overhealing a lot more.

The monk sticky explains this much better than I ever could.

Why would HB monk over heal while a WoH hybrid monk won't? Dkiss and patient is all the direct heal you need for a heal monk. Dkiss basically acts like WoH, and patient acts as a pre-heal so no two persons fall below 50% at a time. The rest of HB bar can be used for heal party. Hybrid builds lacks party wide heals which is the real counter to pressure. Spikes are the jobs of prot monk with sb or ps, and ideally you hit Dkiss after or pre-heal with patient to bring target back to full. Also you acts though any mob actually specialize in spike or pressure, this is pve we are talking about. No mob spike or pressure intentionally, its simply a result of the kind of attacks that they do and thus generally a mix of the two, neither heal or prot monk will feel over pressured. Thanks to the extra room on the heal monk, you also get to bring power pve skills like seed of life and selfless spirit, whereas a hybrid monk's bar is extremely tight and unlikely to have rooms for those. HB or UA also allows for FC rez which solves the problem of one monk dying, and you don't have to force other party member to bring rez.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 19, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

To be fair, mobs in PvE don't hit for much (outside of elite areas) and in HM you'd bring an imbagon or minions so most of the damage that gets through is pretty insignificant and too sporadic to be worth protting for so i can see the logic for only bringing redbar monks. The problem comes when shit hits the fan (your imbagon falls asleep/stands in well of silence - whatever or your minions die) in this situation hybrids are alot stronger and safer because in the scenario above it's likely multiple targets will be attacked so you need more than one protter. Also if you have one prot and one heal monk you are still going to have the problem of healing/protting one target - you need to play extensively and get to know the other monk well before you know what they will heal and prot.

glacialphoenix · Apr 19, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

HB or UA also allows for FC rez which solves the problem of one monk dying, and you don't have to force other party member to bring rez.

So, presumably, you'd have the rez on the HB monk, which would be the heal monk... all well and good if the prot monk dies, but what if the _heal_ monk dies?

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 19, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

rez scroll

123

glacialphoenix · Apr 19, 2009, 12:52 PM // 12:52

^

But that's the answer to everything. Theoretically, you wouldn't need to force anyone to bring a rez if that's the case; you wouldn't need to worry about a fast rez even.

(Actually I have done pure heal/pure prot before, but that involved one of them being, well, Tahlky and some serious manualling.)

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 19, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Whenever i use monk hero's i run pretty much full heal apart from maybe aegis.

Hero's just react to damage so there's no point blowing their energy on prots once the damage has gone through

expugnare · Apr 19, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Well, while this example is not necessarily involving a monk, I must clarify my position; its all good and well to have pride in your own build, it shows you can think for yourself, depart from the herd, all that good stuff. However, sometimes, not listening to advice and being obstinate can really hurt a team. Now, of course, everyone's build here is fine, but who hasn't seen something like this (I couldn't find any monk ones I had saved, but this one struck me a particularly worthless)
[build=OQIUET6UzMTBAfhWGwSnilipGDAA]

After trying to explain why he might want to switch to a more accommodating build, he got angry and called me a noob who didn't understand GW at all. I facepalmed and kicked him. Even if his build somehow worked, he had no rationale behind it, and undoubtedly would have been a crutch for our team. So, moral of the story, getting people to ping builds immediately can be a life-saver. Even if it does make you look like an asshole. :<

lord of all tyria · Apr 19, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Well, while this example is not necessarily involving a monk, I must clarify my position; its all good and well to have pride in your own build, it shows you can think for yourself, depart from the herd, all that good stuff. However, sometimes, not listening to advice and being obstinate can really hurt a team. Now, of course, everyone's build here is fine, but who hasn't seen something like this (I couldn't find any monk ones I had saved, but this one struck me a particularly worthless)
[build=OQIUET6UzMTBAfhWGwSnilipGDAA]

After trying to explain why he might want to switch to a more accommodating build, he got angry and called me a noob who didn't understand GW at all. I facepalmed and kicked him. Even if his build somehow worked, he had no rationale behind it, and undoubtedly would have been a crutch for our team. So, moral of the story, getting people to ping builds immediately can be a life-saver. Even if it does make you look like an asshole. :<

A crutch is something that holds you up and stops you falling over. So that build wouldn't be a crutch at all. Yay internet english corrections.

expugnare · Apr 19, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Excuse my ignorance; I meant that he would force us to use crutches or hinder our team, implying that we would have had to accommodate for his undoubtedly shitty playing.

byteme! · Apr 19, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Humans naturally seek the path of least resistance. This includes good and bad players.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 19, 2009, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by expugnare

Even if it does make you look like an asshole. :<

You don't look like an asshole to the rest of your team when you save them from a wipe.